Chief Edwin Kiagbodo Clark has great credentials: a lawyer, an administrator, Ijaw national leader, a nationalist, a freedom fighter and leader, South South Peoples Assembly. He was Commissioner for Education, Mid-Western Region, 1968-71; Commissioner for Finance and Establishment, Bendel State, 1972-75; Federal Commissioner for Information, 1975; and senator, 1979-83.
In this interview, the Kiagbodo born elder statesman, who turned 86 recently, bares his mind on Nigeria then and now, the politics and judiciary of yesterday and today; the governance of then and now; among other issues.
Excerpts:
Will you say the Nigeria of today represents the dream of past leaders? How do you feel celebrating 86th birthday?
Glory be to Almighty God to attain the age of 86, it is the blessing of God. It is a long way, I feel humbled, happy and fulfilled. When you see yourself growing from young age, you run around, you go to school and do other things, now you are no longer the person you were before, you are old now and the world is different from what it was; when you look back, so many of your friends, your age mates have passed on. One is happy that one is seeing Nigeria at the age of 86. When I was young, young men during the first republic feared that those who were in government at that time were old men and they had a different pattern of leading. These were young men, some of them were 36, 40, 50 was one of the highest at that time and they were dedicated to serving Nigeria. They put Nigeria before themselves; even though there was corruption, it was minimal.
There is nothing wrong with anybody working for government and you have something out of that job; but when you think of yourself first and you take almost all the money that comes to the government you are working for or the department you are heading or the ministry in which you are permanent secretary, it is sad. You take 80 percent and give the people 20 percent and that is why there is no development in Nigeria today. It is not that the people who were ruling Nigeria in the first republic were different people.
The difference is that they thought of Nigeria before themselves. Rigging of election was minimal. It was after the election only in Western Nigeria during Akintola’s time, I think in the 1959 elections, that some people said when a man wins a free and fair election, there is no problem, but when you try to impose yourself on the people, the people will fight because that is not their choice. So, that led to ‘Operation Wetie’ in Western Nigeria and that brought the first coup in Nigeria in 1966.
Another challenge is ethnicity in Nigeria politics today. At that time, nobody was talking about where you came from. In my little home in Warri, the district council that is the local government council was a place for everybody. The Igbo were elected chairmen, there were councillors, like Ezeyaku. Urhobo man won the chairmanship election in Warri. And if you come to the regional level, Dr. Azikiwe was more popular in Lagos and the West than he was in the East, his native place. It was reported that during the election, Igbo won election in Yoruba land, but today it is not possible.
Politics in Nigeria has become a profession, it has now become a money making venture. When I was commissioner for education, my sister was supposed to go to school, she thought I would give her scholarship; I said ‘no, what will people think? I won’t give you scholarship, we are in a position to pay, your father is a wealthy man, your brother is an ambassador.’ She couldn’t understand I was giving scholarship to every lady in the state, and I won’t give her. But, today, people think more of their families; the office they are holding in trust for the public is now regarded as a family affair.
I say to some of my friends, ‘if you occupy certain positions, your families must suffer, but when you are out, they will gain from other people’. When I was commissioner for education and finance, I was able to give scholarship to people, but I didn’t give my people; I was able to construct roads for other people’s villages, but I didn’t construct for mine. For instance, the road that you now call East West Road was started by me under Ogbemudia. When I left office in 1991, and my father died, I said,how we are going to get the road, water, light’, because visitors were coming.
The governor drove to my village, called the whole community together and said this was what your son did when he was in office and it’s my turn to do mine. My village was able to get water, electricity, but the road could not be completed before the burial. What I am saying is that when people get to office, they want to do everything for themselves not thinking that they belong to the people.
As an old man who is 86, who must have seen it all, looking at the present government, between the parliamentary system and presidential, which one do you prefer?.
People blame the system, but there is no system we cannot practice in Nigeria, the fault is in us, not the system. Talking about the parliamentary system and presidential, if we practice the presidential system as it is in America and other places, there is nothing wrong. If we practice the parliamentary as it is in Great Britain, there is nothing wrong, but when you combine the two to suit your own purpose, to take what is good for you and leave what is not good for you, the only difference is that the parliamentary system is less costly, it is not as expensive as the presidential system.
The same election you conduct in presidential system is the same election for parliamentary. In countries where the systems are combined, there is a prime minister, like France, even Kenya, we have the president elected, the vice president, then the prime minister who runs the day to day activities. The president is too powerful in Nigeria and anybody who wants to use the power to the fullest with the kind of constitution we have will be a dictator. And we have seen that from Shagari down to Obasanjo, Yar’Adua and Jonathan, we can see from the system and the practice that some of them are more dictatorial than others.
I believe this constitution should have a bit of parliamentary and presidential and I believe anybody who is a minister must go through election like they do in Britain. It is not the choice of the prime minister or the president, you must be accountable to your people. You don’t know how the elections were held, you did not participate and, in the name of technocrats, you are appointed as minister, or your governor recommended you.
If someone participates in an election and wins, and he is appointed a minister, he is not only responsible to the president or the government, but is also responsible to his people; he will be visiting you otherwise he will lose the seat in the next election. That is what I recommend. In Nigeria in the 1960s, if you were going to be a minister, you must be a member of the parliament, if you are appointed minister, then you resign from parliament.
You talked about electing ministers, don’t you think that will bring confusion in government because if Iam elected as a minister, the president will not have the power to fire me just like you cannot fire anybody in the National Assembly?
No, he will fire you. We practised it in Nigeria in the 1960s, the prime minister was in a position to fire anybody, the constitution provides for his firing, you don’t have to go back to the parliament because you have resigned, that ensures discipline. You will not be able to steal the people’s money as they steal today. Within two to three years, ministers build houses everywhere, they have companies of their own, they award contracts to themselves. Ordinary people are crying, they are complaining. If the ministers have some forms of checks and balances, you go through election before you become a minister, if you misbehave, they will block your seat in the parliament.
As a lawyer and at 86, how do you assess the judiciary then and now?
The judiciary then was one of the things that made me study law: strict, incorruptible and dignified, and the lawyers too were very dignified. Today, you see a lawyer holding brief for both sides; at that time, you could judge a lawyer by his strength, and the way he rules, his confidence; that was why I decided to study law. Today, judges are being accused of corruption. Look at a judge who was posted to a state to try an ex-governor, 170 charges, he gave judgement in two hours.
Elsewhere the former governor admitted his guilt, but that same judge is still there. Nobody has done anything to him.
What kind of judiciary is that and the judge who gave that type of injunction is still parading himself around, he is still a judge today? For five years, over 15 governors have been standing trial in Nigeria, nobody talked. The EFCC, the president cannot eradicate corruption from the society. When a case goes to court, nobody can interfere until judgement is given and you can appeal.
We have challenges in the judiciary today, not only that the judges are not qualified, some are corrupt. Look at the case of the former president of the Court of Appeal and the former Chief Justice of Nigeria, people turned it into politics, it was scandalous. I wrote a letter of over 20 pages to the former Chief Justice who replied and one of the things he said was that lawyers were partly responsible; they go to court to prosecute and there is no relationship between SAN 1 and SAN70.
Have you ever seen a situation whereby five SANs go to court to defend a thief? You cannot compare the judiciary of the first republic or even during the military with the judiciary today. The judiciary today needs to be looked into seriously so that the bad eggs are removed, so that cases are tried. Another issue I raised with the former Chief Justice of Nigeria is the special court, and he agreed with me that all corrupt cases should be tried between six and 12 months; if the man is free, discharge him; if he is guilty, sentence him. For a case to remain in court for five or six years untried and the man is moving freely, enjoying his wealth is bad.
With the picture you have painted about the nation’s judiciary, what message do you have for the incumbent Chief Justice of Nigeria, Mariam Aloma Mukhtar?
She should be courageous and upright. She is a dedicated Chief Justice, she can do it and we should encourage her. There are too many bad things going on in the country; I think she is doing a good job and we should all encourage her to cleanse the judiciary.
Why we have delay on cases in court has to do with our obsolete laws. What is your take on this?
Those who are profitting from corruption are responsible for amending the law or changing the law; so they are not prepared to change the law. Government should set up a special court to try the cankerworm, we cannot progress with corruption in our society. If there are laws making it difficult for cases to go on, let the laws be amended. That should be a priority of the Attorney General of the Federation and the Bar.
What is the secret behind your longevity? Is it hereditary?
Partly hereditary, but, mostly, I live my life from day to day, I do not envy anybody, I speak my mind on issues, I speak the truth, I damn the consequence. When I feel I should go home to sleep, I sleep freely, nothing disturbs my mind. If I have offended you, I am ready to apologize but I have gone home to sleep well. I do not envy anybody, I live my own life. Right from when I was a young man, our father used to tell us, ‘do not look up to people’. In those days, when we were in school, we used to wear khaki and khaki, that was the uniform even when we get home.
So, one day, my father said, ‘don’t be in a hurry, don’t copy people, do not think that these people are even better than you. A day will come when you will wear one shirt everyday of your life, when you will drink cold water, but if you start drinking cold water in your school and out of school you have no job, then you stop drinking cold water because your father has it before, you will wait for a very much longer time’; that has been my guiding principle; I take life very easy, I respect people, I do not live a false life, I enjoy myself if it is worth enjoying in many ways.
General Muhammadu Buhari has asked President Goodluck Jonathan to resign. How do you react?
South-West is the most sophisticated, most educated region in the country; followed by South-East, South-South, their leaders, including the vice president of Nigeria, have endorsed the government of the day, is that not what you will believe and not the one said by one man? The man who removed his brother from office, Shagari was one of the most respected presidents of this country, a patient man, a man who never offended anybody, but he had just won election, in 1983, what did Buhari do? Buhari went and removed him from office. Was he saying Shagari was not efficient? I leave that to you, I don’t want to comment.
Source; Vanguard